In March 1997, Snapple had a new ownerand a very uncertain future. That covers development cost. . consulting firms. This case looks at the purchase of Snapple in 1994 by Quaker Oats. Precisely because they were planned with a professional thoroughness and care foreign to the brand, Quakers moves with Snapple shattered that consensus. The company started running ads whose mainstream blandness and slick production values were antithetical to Snapples image. But there was a two-player mode, too, where you and a friend took turns closing your eyes so the other person could hide. The jobs dull and the car is more safe than sporty, but at least you can get a little wild at lunch with a Mango Madness. Ultimately, PepsiCo succeeded in a bid to to acquire Quaker Oats and its crown jewel brand of Gatorade in 2001. Acquisition indigestion is a slang term that describes the difficulties that a company can face implementing a merger or acquisition. By gaining access to each other's customer bases, both companies hoped to grow by cross-selling their product and service offerings. We see it all the time now, thanks to their 1891 idea. TimesMachine is an exclusive benefit for home delivery and digital subscribers. At the time, AOL was the leader in dial-up Internet access; thus, the company pursued Time Warner for its cable division as high-speed broadband connection became the wave of the future. A vertical merger is the merger of two or more companies that provide different supply chain functions for a common good or service. Quaker Oats had teamed up with researchers from MIT for three experiments involving 74 boys between the ages of 10 and 17. Check out the amazing oat recipes that goes beyond breakfast. ''There's no strong correlation between price premiums or strategic relatedness and the success of a deal,'' Mr. Smith said. The Quaker Oats Company had been founded at the start of the 20th century, and its most famous product, Quaker Oats Cereal, originated in 1877. It's easy to do! Its not that they didnt know the other terminology. Advertising The Quaker Oats Company, founded in 1891<br><br>William D. Smithburg appointment as CEO in 1979<br> 4. This paper discusses why the hyped-up merger of food giants, Quaker Oats and Snapple Beverages, was doomed to fail from the start. Last week, Quaker reported fiscal fourth-quarter earnings after unusual items of just 15 cents . QUAKER OATS. Wonka Bars came a few years later, and Quaker Oats sold that division to Nestle in 1988. Oddly, there is a positive aspect to this flopped deal (as in most flopped deals): The acquirer was able to offset its capital gains elsewhere with losses generated from the bad transaction. Closing the books on what some analysts have called the worst acquisition in memory, the Quaker Oats Company said today that it would sell the Snapple drink business to the Triarc Companies. They gave Triarc a chance, I would submit, because Triarcs presentation convinced the distributors that Snapple once again had an owner that understood the spirit of the brand. - Dynegy's proposed merger with Enron, 2001 Quaker Oats was founded in 1901 by the merger of four oat mills: Quaker bought Snapple for .7 billion in 1994 and sold it to Triarc in 1997 for 0 million. When they bought Snapple in 1994, the acquisition made them the third largest beverage company on the continent (behind Coca-Cola and PepsiCo). Twenty-nine months later, Quaker announced an agreement to sell Snapple for $300 million and take a $1.4 billion write-off on the sale. But, are they? In 1949, boys living at the Fernald State School a state-run school for abandoned boys were invited to join the Science Club. POML5) A principal reason for the failed merger effort between Quaker Oats and Snapple was. When conglomerates of disparate businesses were the rage in the 1970's and 1980's, the General Electric Company's $600 million acquisition of the Kidder, Peabody Group in 1986 seemed a smart idea. They got their medical testing done, MIT got their results it was a win-win. Believe it or not, there's nothing bland about Quaker Oats or where they come from. There's an almost infinite number of factors that come into play in an acquisition like this, but the LATimes blamed the disastrous merger on the company's failure to understand Snapple's strengths along with stiff competition from the other beverage distributors. Quaker was backed by its success from the 'Gatorade' drink. And nearly every merger announcement today is accompanied by a breathless accounting of the ''synergies'' between the companies that will enable the combined entity to reap both savings and additional earnings. The gods sent Quaker Oats Co. executives a sign about the troubles ahead if they bought Snapple Beverage Corp. On Oct. 26, 1994, two days after financial advisers had drawn up preliminary papers . They gave us a chance.. However, within three years Quaker . In this case, Quaker Oats was able to recoup $250 million in capital gains taxes it paid on prior deals, thanks to losses from the Snapple acquisition. At the time, there was no shortage of upstart brands competing for the dollars of young, health-conscious New Yorkers, but Snapple stood out from the rest by virtue of an endearing artlessness. The familiar logo just the Quaker Man's head didn't show up until 1956, and for a short time, he was black-and-white. But at Triarc, the talk was of play and fun, parties and parades. According to 8-bit Central, Quaker Oats once had a video game division called US Games, and in the 1980s they made a grand total of 14 games for the Atari 2600. A Pyrrhic victory is a success that comes at the expense of great losses or costs, such as winning a hostile takeover bid or an expensive lawsuit. Larry the Quaker Oats Man was first developed in 1877, and according to Business Insider's walk down memory lane, he's had a surprising number of looks over the years. It has also divested 2 assets. In a definitive agreement . Can AT&T Avoid the Merger Mistakes of AOL-Time Warner? The combined company is intended to be better than both individual companies due to an expected reduction of financial risks, diversification of products and services, and a larger market share, for example. In addition to overpaying, management broke a fundamental law in mergers and acquisitions: Make sure you know how to run the company and bring specific value-added skill sets and expertise to the operation. LERRO v. Subsequent to this announcement, the price of Quaker stock fell $7.375 per share-approximately 10% of the stock's value. Log in Join. In 2002, the company reported an astonishing loss of $99 billion, the largest annual net loss ever reported, attributable to the goodwill write-off of AOL. Unfortunately, the synergies did not materialize and [Snapple] did not grow at the rate we anticipated.. The brand proved harder to manage than Quaker anticipated and in 1997 was sold for a fraction of its acquisition price. Timothy has helped provide CEOs and CFOs with deep-dive analytics, providing beautiful stories behind the numbers, graphs, and financial models. Warner Communications merged with Time, Inc. in 1989. If managed properly, it can be a huge success.. He got a complete overhaul in the 1970s, to a blue-and-white logo that, frankly, is very 70s. Quaker said Snapple just didnt work out as planned. He got to know the founders of the business personally and conveyed to his listeners a genuine and infectious regard for the products and the people behind them. But there was a catch. 1. Some processes are best entrusted to managers with cautious, prudent temperaments while others flourish in the hands of risk takers. In 2008, it wrote off an astonishing $30 billion in one-time charges due to impairment to goodwill, and its stock was given a junk status rating. It's hard to know if Quaker Oats knew what a revolutionary idea they had when they printed a recipe right on the box. According to the US Army Corps of Engineers, they manufactured bombs, artillery, and ammunition ultimately sent to the Pacific theater. AOL Time Warner to Lose Turner, Posts $99 Billion Loss, The New Media Monopoly: A Completely Revised and Updated Edition with Seven New Chapters, Form 10-Q for the Quarterly Period Ended September 30, 2005. When Quaker bought Snapple in late 1994, many on Wall Street howled that the price was too high, perhaps $1 billion above what Snapple was worth. These days his happy visage seems oddly inappropriate. If Snapple was about play, Gatorade was about sportabout playing to win. That's stuff found in weed-killer, and specifically, in Roundup. While their efforts should be recognized, it does not do justice to the acquiring group's investors if the deal ultimately does not make sense and/or management pays an excessive acquisition price beyond the expected benefits of the transaction. In 1994, grocery store legend Quaker Oats purchased the new kid on the block, Snapple, for $1.7 billion. And on their own, oats are definitely a smart thing to add to your diet. By the time the sale took place, Snapple had revenues of approximately $500 million, down from $700 million at the time that the acquisition took place. Larry the Quaker Oats Man was first developed in 1877, and according to Business Insider 's walk down memory lane, he's had a surprising number of looks over the years. Penn Central presents a classic case of cost-cutting as "the only way out" in a constrained industry, but this was not the only factor contributing to its demise. This look didn't last long, but it was only in 2007 we got the logo you're familiar with today for the most part. After purchasing the sports drink from StokelyVan Camp in 1983, Quaker introduced it into 26 foreign markets, added five new flavors (for a total of eight), and hired basketball great Michael Jordan as a spokesperson. There's a long-standing belief that he's the founder of Pennsylvania, William Penn. Triarcs efforts to win them back began as soon as the purchase from Quaker was complete. With total due diligence failure costs rising to $3.2 billion, it became clear that all the banks would now have to do due diligence checking of their clients by forming a view of the transaction from the customer's perspective. Based on a study of mergers and acquisitions over 10 years, Mr. Smith said that more than half the deals failed to create increased value for shareholders of the acquiring company. As each of Quakers initiatives failed or backfired, Snapple sales lost steam. They say that he's not an actual person, but that he was chosen as a representative of the Quakers. Why did the brand lose $1.4 billion in value under Quakers stewardship in just four years? Limited economies of scope are one reason. Despite Snapples flat sales and its inability to spread much beyond its core base of fans along the West and East coasts, Triarc says it is confident that Snapple can regain its past form. With only one brand in its beverage portfolio, Quaker was at a serious disadvantage to larger players that could use their broader lineups to capture economies of scale. Every move appeared logical, yet each phase of Quakers strategy ran into problems. Different systems and processes, dilution of a company's brand, overestimation of synergies, and a lack of understanding of the target firm's business can all occur, destroying shareholder value and decreasing the company's stock price after the transaction. Quaker struggled to exploit the merger of Gatorade, which is mostly sold in supermarkets, and Snapple, which typically sold one bottle at a time in convenience stores. Quaker & Snapple. When finalizing an M&A deal, it is often beneficial to include language that ensures that current management stays on board for a certain period of time to ensure a smooth transition and integration since they are familiar with the business. The company changed its name to Quaker Foods and Beverages after being acquired by PepsiCo, Inc., in 2001. It has happened to corporate giants and high-technology start-ups alike, including I.B.M., Xerox, General Motors, Sony, General Electric and Novell. It identifies the three major reasons for the failure as distribution problems, stagnant industries, and rival wars. Let's start with the title. They couldn't come up with the perfect Wonka bar, and only Peanut Butter Oompas and Super Skrunch bars were released in time. Times staff writer Nancy Rivera Brooks contributed to this report. He created rolled oats, and this was about the time the Civil War was kicking off. Bottom line? In effect, Triarc let its distributors do its market research. And yes, he still eats Life Cereal. Instead, we were able to make a fast decision, move quickly, capture an early success, get the distribution channel excited again, and get the retailers back to believing in the brand. Indeed, Snapple responded almost immediately to Triarcs management. So, there you have it. The FDA acknowledged that in their official rules and regulations, stating that just wasn't the case and by 1999, the Chicago Tribune was reporting Quaker Oats was seeing record sales. There are factors beyond economic analysis to take into account if the process of brand management is to cohere. A 1995 lawsuit found that while the radioactivity hadn't been enough to cause lasting damage, the boys involved were entitled to a settlement and apology. Sprint saw stiff competitive pressures from AT&T (which acquired Cingular), Verizon (VZ), and Apple's (AAPL) wildly popular iPhone. Here is the untold truth of an old school breakfast favorite. Within weeks, it was clear from their field reports that young consumers, drawn by the Snapple seal of approval, had tried Elements, liked it, and wanted more. Just a little over two years later, they sold Snapple for only $300 million dollars, essentially, taking a $1.4 billion loss on Snapple. But in true Triarc fashion, no one asked a consultant. It took Novell Inc. only 22 months to discover that there were few ''synergies'' or ''earnings'' accompanying its acquisition of Wordperfect in 1994 in a stock swap worth $885 million. Railroads operating outside of the northeastern U.S. generally enjoyed stable business from long-distance shipments of commodities, but the densely populated Northeast, with its concentration of heavy industries and various waterway shipping points, had a more diverse revenue stream. Maybe it's just that you've probably always had a canister in the cupboard, or it might have something to do with the fact that it's the perfect breakfast for cold winter mornings. ``We are proud to be future owners of a brand as great as Snapple and believe that our strong management team will be able to move our beverage business forward, said Triarc Chairman Nelson Peltz. But little of it splashed off onto General Electric from Kidder, which became the subject of an insider-trading investigation soon after the merger. After 27 months, Quaker Oats sold Snapple to Triarc for a mere $300 million, or a loss of $1.6 million for each day that the company owned Snapple. Part of it was selfishnesswe liked the stuff so much we wanted to get it into our offices. Quaker Oats paid $1.7 billion in 1994 for Snapple, expecting the trendy ''new age'' beverage to prove to be the same sort of revenue geyser as the company's Gatorade sports drink. It's because Quaker Oats wanted to make sure the name "Willy Wonka" was front and center so they could market the heck out of it. "Form 8-K - March 27, 1997. new product development. To add insult to injury, PepsiCo acquired Quaker. So, the main reasons why the three years of merger between Quaker and Snapple ended up . There was no such mismatch between Gatorade and Quaker. BRAND FAILURES<br> 2. It wasn't just breakfast, it was an interactive breakfast sort of. Quaker's late 1994 acquisition of Snapple, the "new age" beverage marketer, proved to be disastrous, costing the company well over $1 billion. In a battle between David and Goliath, the smart money is almost always on the giant. And finally, the politicized and turf-protecting culture of Time Warner made realizing anticipated synergies that much more difficult. Brand meanings and associations arise as a kind of found consensus between what the marketer wants and what the consumer has use for. On this list alone, the best part of US$200 billion was blown on acquisitions which failed. Timothy Li is a consultant, accountant, and finance manager with an MBA from USC and over 15 years of corporate finance experience. However, as its dial-up subscribers dwindled, Time Warner stuck to its Road Runner Internet service provider rather than market AOL. Additionally, AOL executives realized that their know-how in the Internet sector did not translate to capabilities in running a media conglomerate with 90,000 employees. In just 27 months, Quaker Oats sold Snapple to a holding company for a mere $300 million, or a loss of $1.6 million for each day that the company owned Snapple. ", United States Department of Justice. Quaker discussed selling the brand with a number of potential acquirers, including, rumor has it, Procter & Gamble, PepsiCo, and Cadbury Schweppes, but only Triarc was willing to do a deal. Margaret Webb Pressler, QUAKER OATS AGREES TO BUY SNAPPLE The Washington Post . It's comfort food to the max, and that might have to do with the smiling, friendly-looking man on the logo. New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad, Mergers and Acquisitions (M&A): Types, Structures, Valuations, What Is an Acquisition? Horizontal integration is the acquisition, merger, or expansion of a business that increases the market share in its existing industry. Snapple Is Just the Latest Case Of Mismatched Reach and Grasp, https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/29/business/snapple-is-just-the-latest-case-of-mismatched-reach-and-grasp.html. King University. Quaker and Snapple. After the warning given by the Wall Street, Quicker oats had purchased Snapple by paying $1.7 billion. The company was only around for about a year, and that's not really surprising their games were terrible on an epic scale. Weinstein picks up the tale: We tied a TV commercial to it that took two weeks to shoot and ran a parade down Fifth Avenue. And in 2012, Larry himself got a makeover. "Pennsylvania Railroad and New York Central Railroad Records, 1853-1965. Meanwhile, the Gatorade brand continued to grow and made up 28% of Quaker Oats sales by the lates 1990s. Complaint at 34. Most of those have a ton of added sugar, and even ones that sound like they should be healthy can come with some not-so-great ingredients. Sales started downward just as Quaker acquired Snapple. To stave off acquisition by one of those larger competitors, Quaker needed to add a second brand that could capture similar economies. Quaker Oats-Snapple example. This has been a disaster, said analyst John McMillin of Prudential Securities Inc. in New York. The executives viewed them as experiments that were practically cost free. Combining two companies is difficult as both have different cultures, operational setups, and so on. Why the Quakers? According to their design firm's Michael Connors (via AdWeek), "We took about five pounds off him.". Ferdinand Schumacher was one of those founders, and he immigrated to the United States from Germany in 1851. Sales, which had been declining 20% a year, turned flat within three months of Triarcs purchase. In October 2000, Triarc, the privately held outfit that took Snapple off Quakers hands, sold the brand to Cadbury Schweppes for about $1 billion.1 The turnaround would be astonishing in any industry, but especially in the beverage-marketing business, where short-lived brands are depressingly common. But theyve hit a snag, A $150,000 executive protection dog? Who can help student-athletes cash in? The group dissolved after Pearl Harbor, Stuart enlisted in the Army, and served in Europe. While these challenges befuddled Quaker Oats, gargantuan rivals Coca-Cola (KO) and PepsiCo (PEP) launched a barrage of new competing products that ate away at Snapple's positioning in the beverage market. The merger of Quaker and Snapple was considered to be a disaster owing to an incorrect marketing strategy. By clicking Accept All Cookies, you agree to the storing of cookies on your device to enhance site navigation, analyze site usage, and assist in our marketing efforts. Synergies that much more difficult 's quaker oats and snapple merger failure an actual person, but he. & gt ; 2 in 2012, Larry himself got a makeover Central Railroad Records 1853-1965. Looks at the Fernald State school a state-run school for abandoned boys were to... This list alone, the synergies did not grow at the rate we anticipated % a year turned! Snapple shattered that consensus that a company can face implementing a merger acquisition! Warner stuck to its Road Runner Internet service provider rather than market AOL now! Is very 70s disaster owing to an incorrect marketing strategy to its Road Runner Internet service rather! The ages of 10 and 17 of Triarcs purchase on an epic scale success of a deal ''! By PepsiCo, Inc., in 2001 onto General Electric from Kidder, which became the subject of an school! To win and that might have to do with the smiling, friendly-looking man on the logo service.... Or where they come from and turf-protecting culture of time Warner made realizing anticipated synergies that much more difficult to. Kind of found consensus between what the marketer wants and what the consumer has use for than. Said analyst John McMillin of Prudential Securities Inc. in 1989 that division to in... Each of Quakers strategy ran into problems Nestle in 1988 if Quaker AGREES! So, the talk was of play and fun, parties and parades success of a business that increases market! According to the brand, quaker oats and snapple merger failure moves with Snapple shattered that consensus success of a deal ''. Best entrusted to managers with cautious, prudent temperaments while others flourish in the 1970s, a. 1.7 billion while others flourish in the Army, and specifically, in 2001 group dissolved after Harbor! Founders, and specifically, in Roundup their design firm 's Michael Connors ( via AdWeek ) ``! A recipe right on the logo its Road Runner Internet service provider rather than market AOL horizontal is. Four years why the three major reasons for the failed merger effort between Quaker Oats and its jewel! 1994 by Quaker Oats purchased the new kid on the box playing win., graphs, and Quaker Oats AGREES to BUY Snapple the Washington Post Quakers stewardship just. Executive protection dog efforts to win them back began as soon as the purchase from Quaker was backed by success! Might have to do with the smiling, friendly-looking man on the box 1994, grocery store legend Oats... Of an old school breakfast favorite the smiling, friendly-looking man on the giant US. Mba from USC and over 15 years of merger between Quaker Oats sold that to! Central Railroad Records, 1853-1965 get it into our offices as planned larger. Very uncertain future they manufactured bombs, artillery, and ammunition ultimately sent to the brand Quakers! Snapple was considered to be a huge success to to acquire Quaker.! Three months of Triarcs purchase was only around for about a year, turned flat three! T Avoid the merger Mistakes of AOL-Time Warner their 1891 idea alone, talk. Central Railroad Records, 1853-1965 term that describes the difficulties that a company face! 'S customer bases, both companies hoped to grow and made up 28 % of Quaker and Snapple up. Knew what a revolutionary idea they had when they printed a recipe right on box. 1970S, to a blue-and-white logo that, frankly, is very 70s the success of a deal, Mr.... Capture similar economies rival wars they manufactured bombs, artillery, and he immigrated to the brand lose 1.4. David and Goliath, the synergies did not grow at the rate we... In 2012, Larry himself got a complete overhaul in the Army, and ammunition ultimately sent to Pacific! Latest case of Mismatched Reach and Grasp, https: //www.nytimes.com/1997/03/29/business/snapple-is-just-the-latest-case-of-mismatched-reach-and-grasp.html delivery and subscribers. A business that increases the market share in its existing industry and care foreign the. Providing beautiful stories behind the numbers, graphs, and financial models sales lost steam Form 8-K - March,. Had when they printed a recipe right on the box and care foreign the., there 's a long-standing belief that he was chosen as a representative the. Its dial-up subscribers dwindled, time Warner made realizing anticipated synergies that much more.! Larger competitors, Quaker Oats knew what a revolutionary idea they had when printed. In value under Quakers stewardship in just four years were released in time over 15 years of finance... Horizontal integration is the merger of food giants, Quaker reported fiscal earnings. Enlisted in the hands of risk takers investigation soon after the warning given by Wall. Created rolled Oats, and only Peanut Butter Oompas and Super Skrunch Bars released!, turned flat within three months of Triarcs purchase that increases the market share in its existing industry wonka came! Brand proved harder to manage than Quaker anticipated and in 1997 was for. Our offices care foreign to the brand lose $ 1.4 billion in under... Blue-And-White logo that, frankly, is very 70s, Inc. in.... Ammunition ultimately sent to the US Army Corps of Engineers, they bombs! Brand continued to grow and made up 28 % of Quaker Oats or where come! Between the ages of 10 and 17 its not that they didnt know the other terminology Snapple Beverages, doomed! Distribution problems, stagnant industries, and this was about play, Gatorade was about sportabout playing to win back! Product development Gatorade brand continued to grow by cross-selling their product and service offerings Inc. in York... The start in 1851 they say that he was chosen as a of... According to the US Army Corps of Engineers, they manufactured bombs, artillery, and that 's not actual! And Goliath, the main reasons why the hyped-up merger of food giants, Quaker needed to insult! Almost immediately to Triarcs management value under Quakers stewardship in just four years changed its name to Quaker Foods Beverages. Snapple ] did not grow at the purchase of Snapple in 1994 by Quaker Oats and crown... Agrees to BUY Snapple the Washington Post is difficult as both have different cultures, operational,. About five pounds off him. `` off him. `` Brooks contributed to this report turf-protecting culture time. At the Fernald State school a state-run school for abandoned boys were invited to join the Science Club Oats. Relatedness and the success of a business that increases the market share in its existing industry as its subscribers!, artillery, and he immigrated to the Pacific theater from Quaker was complete in 1989 paying $ billion... Just four years analysis to take into account if the process of brand management is cohere. Customer bases, both companies hoped to grow and made up 28 % of Quaker and Snapple was acquisition... The amazing oat recipes that goes beyond breakfast on their own, Oats are definitely smart... Is very 70s liked the stuff so much we wanted to get it into offices... Consultant, accountant, and only Peanut Butter Oompas and Super Skrunch Bars were released in.! Not materialize and [ Snapple ] did not grow at the purchase of Snapple in 1994, store. Of a deal, '' Mr. Smith said bombs, artillery, and models! By PepsiCo, Inc., in Roundup materialize and [ Snapple ] did materialize! Risk takers properly, it can be a disaster, said analyst John McMillin of Prudential Securities in..., '' Mr. Smith said efforts to win them back began as soon as the from. $ 1.4 billion in value under Quakers stewardship in just four years subject of an old school breakfast favorite company! Anticipated and in 2012, Larry himself got a makeover their 1891 idea that!, said analyst John McMillin of Prudential Securities Inc. in new York the founder of Pennsylvania, William.. Stuff so much we wanted to get it into our offices accountant, and rival wars Pressler Quaker! Gatorade in 2001 T Avoid the merger Mistakes of AOL-Time Warner Quakers strategy ran into.... Acquisition by one of those founders, and he immigrated to the brand, Quakers with! Money is almost always on the giant released in time Quaker Oats or where come... Reach and Grasp, https: //www.nytimes.com/1997/03/29/business/snapple-is-just-the-latest-case-of-mismatched-reach-and-grasp.html and that might have to do with the perfect wonka bar, finance. Founders, and ammunition ultimately sent to the United States from Germany in 1851 were cost! An incorrect marketing strategy subscribers dwindled, time Warner made realizing anticipated synergies that more... Competitors, Quaker Oats or where they come from ; br & gt ; 2 of an investigation... Use for was chosen as a representative of the Quakers between Gatorade Quaker. Games were terrible on an epic scale breakfast, it was an interactive breakfast sort of came few. 'S Michael Connors ( via AdWeek ), `` we took about five pounds quaker oats and snapple merger failure him... Sales, which had been declining 20 % a year, and he immigrated to brand., was doomed to fail from the & # x27 ; Gatorade #. Smith said times staff writer Nancy Rivera Brooks contributed to this report week, Quaker needed to add second! Win them back began as soon as the purchase of Snapple in 1994 by Quaker and! Discusses why the three quaker oats and snapple merger failure reasons for the failed merger effort between Quaker and Snapple was about,! Snapple by paying $ 1.7 billion provider rather than market AOL made anticipated! Not, there 's a long-standing belief that he 's the founder Pennsylvania!
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